Official Luthiers Forum!

   Yes folks Deb kicked me out of the mimf. I love this place as we can all help with the luthier hobby and trade. It seems someone was looking for a 12 string kit.
   A post for martin guitars GMC was made and I listed that Blues Creek Guitars also has some. Here is the nice email I got. Lance thanks so much for having a Forum where we can actuall talk about supplies and where we get things.
   I wish Deb well but I will have her link removed from my site. I have promoted this hobby a long time as most of you know. Hope you all support OLF
Yours
John Hall






John, you have been warned more than once since November, 2003, not to
use the MIMForum to promote your products. Your message on the
MIMForum, quoted below, has been removed, and you are suspended from the
MIMForum. Mention of your business is suspended as well, and any
reference to Blues Creek will be replaced with a [business suspended]
message by the staff. You may request to have your suspension lifted in
on February 17th, 2006.

--

Deb Suran, sysop
Musical Instrument Makers Forum http://www.mimf.com

blues creek guitars has 12 string kits

Sorry to hear that John. I'm not familiar with this forum but, my thoughts are a forum should be for information. Where to find certain things, how to do's...etc. Oh well, guess they have their own agenda. Don't sweat it...you still have the OLF which seems to be gaining ground in the cyber world.

Thanks for your support.
Yes Lance has a great site.I know most of these guys here and I am proud to say I helped get some of them started. That is why I support this site. It is hard to get good info and here is where I send people.
   There is more info here for a newbie and I learn much from the postings myself.
john

[QUOTE=tippie53]    blues creek guitars has 12 string kits[/QUOTE]

Wow, what an offensive post! Just kidding John.

At least we still have access to your years of experience and your great product line here at the OLF.

Many thanks to Lance for keeping the forum open enough that our fine vendors can show us their wares.

BTW John, I had a little falling out with Deb a while back. I still have the mimf link on my website but I don't go over there much at all anymore.

_________________
Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

THAT IS INSANE!!!!

I will be the first to step up and say that the MIMF is Deb's sandbox and she can make any rules she wants.... but I think this is just silliness.

I absolutely HATE HATE HATE the opinion that all commercial endeavors are somehow tainted and bad. I believe that the OLF is a great place because we share information and our sponsors and suppliers take an active role in the community.

This is a model of good corporate citizenship.

Chin up John. We will make sure your business doessn't suffer as a result of this. "Word of mouth" is alive and well.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Man, that's ridiculous. I too am glad that there is a freedom of exchange here. Hopefully, Others will eventually catch on to that and leave there and come over here.
Sorry John, you're one of the good guys, and her hardline stance has lost her a lot of business and friends.
Actually, though in a way we owe her a great debt. "WHY?" you ask? Simple. As a result of her rules and regulations, we have three other great forums now.

The OLF,
The 13th Fret
The Luthier's Corner (AG Magazine)

It's my understanding that these were all started as result of luthiers wanting a freedom of exchange of information. Not 100% sure about the last one though.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I think you are right Don.

I think we should institute a recruit a friend to the OLF day....

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Thanks again
Yes MIMF helped me when I started but what good is it when you can't tell people where the commercial sites are. I wish here well and she has a right to run MIMF as she wants.
   This is what will make OLF a long lasting forum. All of you have been good to us at BLues Creek and I will be doing some more things in the near future.
Brock you and Lance have done much for Luthiery with this forum and I will continue to support it as long as I am able.

John,
I seem to remember seeing others on the MIMF site passing along information on where you can get supplies, etc. I don't understand why you can't mention your company?!?! As read above I think the idea is that people are helping others with information. I just joined this forum yesterday, and one of the factors was that you do have links to suppliers, etc. I like this. Deb references Stew-mac all over the place! I have seen many references to LMI as well. I don't see what is so wrong about you mentioning your wares as well.
Mark Laura

Mark, the culture of the MIMF (as Deb defines it) is that you cannot actively promote your business, list prices, post links to commercial sites, post pics of anything you didn't take, talk religion or politics (ok... those two are smart ideas), etc.

When John posted the simple fact that he offered these kits that caused an infraction of her rules. I agree it was in the SPIRIT of helping someone, not blatent promotion. But at the MIMF that doesn't matter.

It is a black or white world over there.

John clearly is one of the good guys. LMI and StewMac are mentioned throughout the MIMF, but I challenge you to find a link (or even a text url) other than the paid advertising banners.
Brock Poling38581.3953472222

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Rediculous!! At least you have this forum which is the best there is John. A lot of problems at her forum so I don't go there much anymore.Everything I've needed I have found right here at the OLF!!

_________________
Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

It's funny that on MIMF you have to write "obvious URL"
or it costs as much as a "set of EIR" because your not allowed to post websites or prices.
I used to go there a lot but I find this forum a lot more informative and fun.
Brad

Hey we can start our own club John. I got booted there too, for sending a
bunch of e-mails promoting my videos, and many were to members of
the mimf, as well as other places too. Deb went on to call me, publicly
and privately, a slimeball, a liar, and a thief.John Mayes38582.0654282407

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

John, I think getting booted is a badge of honor these days. I have been deleted because if inactivity, but that is not nearly as cool as getting thrown out.

But John (M)... You ARE a bad boy.   

Oh well... I say we will take all the MIMF outcasts.Brock Poling38581.4367013889

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I don't even have MIMF bookmarked anymore (replaced with 13th Fret), the site was just too restrictive for me, every other post seemed to be from the sysops removing something or reminding people of rules, rules and more rules , OK it's Deb's site, and I don't know what her contractual arrangement with Stew Mac is, but it's the sort of overbearing environment I can do without.

Lance has rapidly become one of my heroes, not only for the quality of his guitar building but for the gentle hand on the tiller with which he runs this forum. Let's face it we all know what the spirit and constraints of the forum are without big brother looking over our shoulder all the time. I've never met Lance, nor am I likely too, but I just know he's a helluva guy.

It just seem obvious to me that if I ask where can I get 12" widgets from and another forum member can post a link or say I've got them, that's a lot more helpful to me.

Lance says this forum, this community, is the equivalent of a bunch of guys (and Gals) hanging about in the pub, swapping tips and info as well as having a laugh with each other. Well that's just the sort of place I want to be. Mines a malt whisky please.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

John, and all other forum sponsors, if I came here and kept mentioning that I had a product similar, or the same as yours, for sale, yet I did not sponsor the forum, would you not get a little torqued and ask Lance to do something? I mean, can't be fair for me to come along a advertise for free while y'all pay Lance for the same, right?

That is what happened to Deb and the MIMF. That place gets many times more traffic than this place does, and when sponsors started complaining about exactly that, she had to do something. Fair is fair. She did ask you once not to do it, but you came along and again, did so. We never see you post anything else there, so I'm ready to bet that if you were contributing to threads more often, you'd not been suspended, either.

You see yourself as just one of one, but trust me, there are many, many others out there who just happen to mention that they have stuff to sell that would help the person who asked. When I was on the staff there, it was nearly a daily thing; if left unchecked, the place would be nothing but every wood cutter and jig maker trying to sell stuff. It would quickly have gone out of control, and killed the forum.

Look at what's happened here; a while back, one wood dealer shows us a piece or has a sale, and then suddenly it's everyone having a sale, and 1/2 the posts on the forum were trying to sell us something. Now, I'll admit to having grabbed some wood in these sales, myself <bg>, but I would have found them anyway, I do believe. These sales and such should be left in the adds themselves and not be actual threads; juts update your adds at the top of the page to say you're having a sale or have some new inventory instead of strating a new thread, or, worse, jumping in on another vendor's thread to say you also have a sale on. It takes away from the forum more than it adds, and this is a little known forum with relatively little traffic. Now think of what would have happened on the MIMF 4-5 years ago when it started to go this way! It was unreal, and had to be nipped.

If you have something to offer, Deb allows you to do so in a roundabout manner, and the best way is from a third person referral. And she does give everyone a second chance, more if you actually contribute to the forum by helping others and participating in threads. Again, what would you all think of someone who never gave advice here, but stopped by once a week and told you of his updated inventory and/or new cool tool and jigs, yet didn't sponsor like the rest of you do?

Put the other shoes on before you step on those toes....

Colin I'll second that. Can't say enough good things about Lance and Brock.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

One of the difficult parts of this hobby is figuring out where to get supplies. I have gotten some good advice on how to do things from the MIMF, but I really appreciate having an easy resource for where to get wood, instructional DVDs, etc.

One of the coolest aspects of this forum is the fact that the sponsors can post a special offer. You guys rock .

_________________
53% of all statistics are made up on the spot
http://driftwoodguitars.blogspot.com/

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] Mark, the culture of the MIMF (as Deb defines it) is that you cannot actively promote your business, list prices, post links to commercial sites, post pics of anything you didn't take, talk religion or politics (ok... those two are smart ideas), etc.[/QUOTE]

Ummmm can you say Hypocrite?? when we went to war with Iraq she shut the site down for a day with a banner protesting the war, pretty political if you ask me. I don't care what you think about the war that's your business but she made all of her patrons suffer for her views...

I simply stopped going there once I found this place, I never like all the insidious rules and regulations, they never made any sense at all, the fact that she would just shut it down on saturday probably the busiest day for us part timers always frosted me, and her response was always that she 'had' to take a day off from it.

I don't visit the fret anymore either because I got tired of some well known luthiers using it as a podium to pontificate about how great they were. I'd rather just let my guitars do the talking and after a while just stopped visiting, I much prefer the people here.

-Paul-

_________________
-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

[QUOTE=Sprockett] [QUOTE=Brock Poling] Mark, the culture of the MIMF (as Deb defines it) is that you cannot actively promote your business, list prices, post links to commercial sites, post pics of anything you didn't take, talk religion or politics (ok... those two are smart ideas), etc.[/QUOTE]

Ummmm can you say Hypocrite?? when we went to war with Iraq she shut the site down for a day with a banner protesting the war, pretty political if you ask me. I don't care what you think about the war that's your business but she made all of her patrons suffer for her views...

I simply stopped going there once I found this place, I never like all the insidious rules and regulations, they never made any sense at all, the fact that she would just shut it down on saturday probably the busiest day for us part timers always frosted me, and her response was always that she 'had' to take a day off from it.

I don't visit the fret anymore either because I got tired of some well known luthiers using it as a podium to pontificate about how great they were. I'd rather just let my guitars do the talking and after a while just stopped visiting, I much prefer the people here.

Mario I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, I can understand the advertisement part to some degree but nothing that debs does over there is what I would call friendly, the rules are just far too restrictive to have good constructive conversations and in fact I clearly remember a post from you on there telling someone that it was far to easy to get in trouble for posting something that broke the rules over there.

I wish Debs well but will never set foot over there again, that's her universe and she can run it however she likes, I just won't be participating.

Cheers

-Paul-

_________________
-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

    Mario
   Lets face it , we live in a commercial and capitolistic society. Do I mind if someone who dooesn't sponser this site to list an item. NO WAY. competition is good.
It keeps the suppliers price fair and give the luthier trade a fair price to supply. We at OLF are not that blantent and do the promoting in a fair manner. Deb is what she is. Good luck to her and I still think this forum is better for all,
   Thanks agian
john

Do I mind if someone who dooesn't sponser this site to list an item. NO WAY.

That is admirable, John, but you are indeed a minority in your thinking. True, the sponsors here are low key and small, as is the forum itself, and it may work here. But multiply this 5-6 times, and you have the MIMF, and that traffic brings big hitters and many others, and it was ugly. I've been there since '98, and it was a free-for-all like this forum is right now abck then, and when it reached a certain size, it just did not work anymore.

Y'all love this place for good reason, the same reasons I frequent here, too, but if/when it gets more popular, expect it to change. As Paul says, the fret was a great place, but grew and grew and reached a critical mass, changed, and now is very different than it was. Why? because it was left unchecked and free, for the most part. The MIMF was heading that way, too, but Deb headed it off at the pass, made some tough decisions, and it remains a great place for information sharing.

The USA would never have grown to be the country it is today without rukles, many of which many of you dislike, but it is these rules that allowed it to grown to be what it is. We only need to look to many other parts of the world to see what happens in societies that don't have strict child labor laws, educational laws, and what not.

We all live by rules. Lance would kick me out if I used profane language in my posts; Bruce would flip if I posted links to porn, or worse yet, posted nude pics, right? Right. Rules. Deb has rules, she asked you once, you didn't respect her wishes in her home, and she politely told you you can't come back. In turn you go bashing her. If I go to your house and put my feet up, boots and al, on your table, you would ask me to not do it again. If I retruned, and did the same again, you'd show me the door. Would it be "nice" of me to then take out an ad in the local paper, publicly denouncing your hospitality because my other friends let me put my feet up when I visit?

I'm not slamming you, John; just trying to make you(and the rest here) see that there are reasons for things, and that there are two sides to everything.

Your points are well taken Mario, but you have to admit that there is a middle ground here.

I think creativitiy is the solution -- ways for sponsors to promote their business in a way that is condusive to the community, not an all out free-for-all.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Hear, Hear, Mario.

Look everybody, StewMac stated they would pull their funding if Deb continued to allow commercial messages from the posters. That would have killed MIMF. The solution is obvious, if sometimes silly (obvious url) or restrictive (hard to talk about which tool to buy when price is a factor, and you can't mention prices).

I find several of the rules and allowances on this forum either silly or offensive to my religious sensibilities. Would you like it if I went off to some other forum and slagged you off for it? I think not.